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Subject Topic: Taking a bath won’t make you clean. Post Reply Post New Topic
Message posted by marco256 on October 03 2009 at 10:25 am - IP Logged
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marco256
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January 29 2004
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If individuals understood what OT washing rituals really were, then they would understand that these washing rituals have nothing to do with Christian Holy Spirit baptism or water baptism. Once the distinction is made it is clear why water baptism has no connection to salvation. 

From the very numerous causes of defilement, seen and unseen, no Israelite could be sure of his being ceremonially clean. And hence the bath was a constant religious necessity, frequently repeated, and always taken before offering sacrifice. Also, the washing itself was preparatory and you had to wait a period of time. These washing rituals also applied to inanimate objects.  

Leviticus 11:32 - `Also anything on which one of them may fall when they are dead becomes unclean, including any wooden article, or clothing, or a skin, or a sack--any article of which use is made--it shall be put in the water and be unclean until evening, then it becomes clean.  

Now we know all OT rituals did have some applications to the NT as they all foreshadow Christ. So how does Lev. 11:32 connect with the NT:

when you read what follows: The washing ritual itself had no direct bearing on atonement. It was a minor preliminary ritual.  

Hebrews 9. 8 The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing, 9 which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, 10 since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation. 11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?



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the righteous man lives by grace alone

Message posted by One Faith on October 06 2009 at 8:32 am - IP Logged
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One Faith

 
United States
August 25 2008
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1 Peter 3

18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

 19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,

 20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 22who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

I know... again, too inconvenient for some folks around here.


Message posted by marco256 on October 06 2009 at 10:04 am - IP Logged
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it is a sad fact that one faith can read, but he cannot understand: Now once more, let’s try to use some grammatical intelligence in interpreting a difficult verse.  

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; (in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,  who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. )

Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you (not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

You can re-arrange this to show what the text is plainly stating:  

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you ... through the resurrection of Jesus Christ : so what baptism : it can’t be water baptism: how do we know this:  (not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience)  so Peter is not talking about any washing ritual for only the Holy Spirit can change the mind, heart of a believer. So what is Peter stating: 

Peter discusses how Christ preaches to the disobedient spirits who ignored Noah: (in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,  who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. ) Does this relate to water baptism …. of course not: how do we know: simple, being brought through the flood (brought through the water)  is a literal event.

So once more, an ability to read scripture gives you a very clear and precise answer.



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the righteous man lives by grace alone

Message posted by marco256 on October 06 2009 at 10:30 am - IP Logged
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marco256
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one small item ... before one faith tries to respond, he might want to read John 1.5-14. It might help him to understand the above ....

also ... this link may help him to understand ...

http://www.biblegateway.com/pa**age/?search=1peter3&version=AMP

And baptism, which is a figure [of their deliverance], does now also save you [from inward questionings and fears], not by the removing of outward body filth [bathing], but by [providing you with] the answer of a good and clear conscience (inward cleanness and peace) before God [because you are demonstrating what you believe to be yours] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I know... again, too inconvenient for one faith to discuss ... it's so much easier to convince yourself that your own works and knowledge is what saves you ...



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the righteous man lives by grace alone

Message posted by One Faith on October 06 2009 at 3:04 pm - IP Logged
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One Faith

 
United States
August 25 2008
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Your explanation of 1 Peter 3 is a joke, it's got to be a joke.

The explanation is quite simply this.  Noah was obedient by building the ark and was brought safely through the water.  CORRESPONDING TO THAT, our obedience to the command to be baptized in water saves us, not as a physical cleansing, but as an appeal to God.

So, to draw the completely SIMPLE analogy here.  Was Noah saved by his work of building the ark?  No.  He was saved for his faith in God by believing AND obeying.  Are we saved by the water of baptism?  No.  We are saved by faith through believing AND obeying God.  And I have gajillions of verses I can quote to prove that point.

But marco would rather read some commentary or have a website tell him what to believe.  I guess it's too difficult to actually just read the words that the Bible says.


Message posted by marco256 on October 06 2009 at 3:14 pm - IP Logged
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one faith: you have totally lost it:

our obedience to the command to be baptized in water saves us : now many people have stated ridiculous things, but this is the tops. Just to show how ridiculous this is:

1.  baptism now saves you : it doesn't state water baptism. this is your unproven as.sumption which you cannot support.

2. it is Noah's faith that brings him through the waters. That is the point. baptism doesn't refer to water, otherwise it would have been stated so, but the verse specifically states: not by the removing of outward body filth [bathing],   the proof of this is simple: Paul doesn't state that Noah was saved by obedience ... you are stating this and this is where your works based salvation falls on its face (again)

Hebrews 11:7 -By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

nowhere does it state that you are saved by obedience to water baptism ... no such phrase exits in the bible .. you have simply made this up in you rown legion mind ...



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the righteous man lives by grace alone

Message posted by Gizmo on October 06 2009 at 3:42 pm - IP Logged
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Gizmo

 
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July 26 2005
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One is "made clean" by the removal of the law that was against us.  Since 2000 years ago God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, no longer counting their [the entire world's] sin against them.

He blotted out the handwriting that was against us, so all mankind can walk in absolute confidence that they are okay with God because of Jesus. 

Now that's GOOD NEWS!!



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"Obama is as much a socialist as the Pope is an atheist." - F.N. Brill, National Secretary of the World Socialist Party (US)

Message posted by marco256 on October 07 2009 at 6:23 am - IP Logged
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gizmo, let's see if you are capable of critical thinking:

can you distinguish between these two concepts:

1. redemption

2. substitution.

It is quite interesting that the Bible never says that the Lord Jesus died on behalf of the sins of all. It only says that the Lord Jesus died on behalf of all (2 Cor. 5:14).  Now redemption is Christ atoning for the sins of mankind. but substitution is putting Himself in the place of the condemned.

So how can you be saved? The redemptive work of Christ is God Himself coming to bear man's sin against Him.  When we understNS what God has accomplished, and believe and accept it, we  receive this substitution.

Christ also has suffered once for sins, the Righteous on behalf of the unrighteous" (1 Pet. 3:18). He "Himself bore up our sins in His body on the tree" (1 Pet. 2:24). All of these were done for us. On the night the Lord was betrayed, He took the cup and blessed it, and gave it to the disciples, saying, "This is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins," (Matt. 26:28). It was for many, not for all.

the simple summary of the above:

1. redemption is at the cross

2. salvation comes to those who believe in Christ who substituted Himself for us.



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the righteous man lives by grace alone

Message posted by BibleBeliever on October 07 2009 at 6:42 am - IP Logged
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BibleBeliever

 
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April 19 2009
434 Posts

Wow! thanks for clearing that up for me one faith.

All this time I thought Noah was "inside" the ark (picturing our being in Christ), but now you have helped me to see that he rode out the storm on the outside of the boat - so that he could get wet.

You see, a Noah being IN the ark would have made him stay dry - and that way he could never have been able to fit into CofC teachings.



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"If a man goes to hell he ought to be there, or he wouldn't be there" - Billy Sunday

Baptist Bible Believers Website

Message posted by marco256 on October 07 2009 at 9:14 am - IP Logged
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marco256
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Biblebeliever makes this great point and critical distinction about being in Christ.

Christ said in John 3:6 that that which is born of the flesh is flesh. You become Adam by being born into him. If you got into him by birth, you have to get out of him by death. But how do we die? God crucified us when the Lord Jesus was crucified on the cross. Therefore, in Christ we have died to Adam. How do we get into Christ? You get into Christ by birth. Peter said that we are regenerated through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from among the dead : 

1 Peter 1:3 - Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,  

First, through the death of Christ, we are delivered from the family of Adam. Second by the resurrection, we enter into Christ. 1 Peter 1:3  totally clarifies the type of baptism Peter was discussing because it is Christ’s resurrection that regenerates us via the Holy Spirit.

So one faith's comment : our obedience to the command to be baptized in water saves us has absolutely no scriptural basis or justification whatsoever.



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the righteous man lives by grace alone

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